Have you considered that what is considered “normal” is actually what the majority believes are the norms we should be following as a society? In Massachuttes, women were burned alive because they were considered to be witches – in part for believing in natural healing and in part because they were “different”.

Insanity simply is a view that is rejected by the majority of societies and that definition will change in different different eras. For example, while I consider it insane that women were burned at the stake, at the time it was quite sane. I consider the fear that surrounded the “dark ages” of Europe to be insane but at the time it was considered sane. I consider the idea of enslaving men and women because of the color of their skin to be insanity, yet it was the norm. I consider enslaving/killing people because of their religious beliefs over thousands of years of our known history to be insane, yet this was the norm. We need to really consider before we label something as “bizarre”.

I believe that fear has this current society going through their own period of insanity that time will reveal. Why are we concerned about what is “bizarre”? Should the real test not be whether a behavior is hurting another human being one on one? How can I and why should I concern myself with how someone else views my behavior? What happened to Larry King is no one’s fault other than the person who hurt him. No one else bears responsibility, just because I do not agree with something or do not understand it does not give me the right to hurt anyone.

In the United States, people who practice voodoo/hoodoo do so in secret because the majority would find those beliefs/behaviors “bizarre”. In the United States, you can be charged with any number of crimes if it were discovered that you took a child to a voodoo practitioner rather than a doctor when the child became sick. Natural healing is not viewed as a legitimate option though that opinion is quickly changing.

We can not blame people’s sexual orientation for the spread of disease any more than we can blame a group of people who are predisposed to carrying a gene for a disease for continuing to procreate amongst themselves.

Tolerance and acceptance of people for who they are will be the only way that we can survive as a human race. It is not for me to judge who should be able to make a commitment to one another.

You ask, “Why should we support gay people who want to get married?”

Who are you or any of us to presume that gay people need our support? They simply want to be left alone to be allowed the same freedoms as anyone else.

You ask, “can’t they just live together?” This is the same thought process that contributed to the rules against interracial marriage in the United States. Who by the way is “they”? I suspect if “they” were a close family member, your cousin, best friend, etc. you would have a different opinion on the matter.

You ask, “Isn’t marriage supposed to be a sacred union between a man and woman?” – Says who? If you are speaking in religious terms, then what do you say to those who do not believe? Would it be too “bizarre” for them to get married? Marriage does not require a religious ceremony, all that is required is civil ceremony and that is what gay people are asking for – the ability for them to make the statement that they are committed to a relationship.

Finally, you say, “Yes, stigma is wrong. But I find it very alarming to know that we live in an era in which many children know what it means to be gay even before they know what sex is. To me, that just cannot be right.”

Why do you find it alarming when children know their mother and father sleep in the same bed before they know what sex is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Below is an excerpt with regards to animals that display homosexual behavior – perhaps it is not so “bizarre” after all.

Homosexual behavior is widespread amongst social birds and mammals, particularly the sea mammals and the primates.[3]

“No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.”
—Petter Bøckman[3]

Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species and the motivations for and implications of their behaviors have yet to be fully understood. Bagemihl’s research shows that homosexual behavior, not necessarily sex, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them.[5][6]

Homosexuality in animals is seen as controversial because some assert it points to the naturalness of homosexuality in humans, while others counter that it has no implications and is nonsensical to use animal behavior to justify what is or is not immoral.[7][8] Animal preference and motivation is always inferred from behaviour. Thus homosexual behaviour has been given a number of terms over the years. The correct usage of the term homosexual is that an animal exhibits homosexual behaviour, however this article conforms to the usage by modern research[9][10][11][12] applying the term homosexuality to all sexual behaviour (copulation, genital stimulation, mating games and sexual display behaviour) between animals of the same sex.

I have the distinction of living both in Oxnard California where the young man Larry King was murdered and Dominica (in Fortune). I’m also a research psychologist who has spent my career studying human social behavior.

The author has many valid and serious concerns. I think however, that some real issues have gotten mixed together with diversions, and some misconceptions. Homosexuality is no more a “preference” than is heterosexuality. I do not “prefer” being heterosexual, I simply am heterosexual. The same is true of folks who are homosexual. That many cultures in many times have put down homosexuality says nothing about the people themselves. Many cultures put down people for all sorts of differences. That does not mean the “different” people are wrong for being who they are.

The author also makes the common mistake of attributing HIV to gays. This mixes together a variety of issues into a dangerous brew (dangerous, because it leads to hate). Gays are not responsible for the HIV epidemic. HIV appeared first in subgroups that had many sexual partners. Both straight and gay subgroups exist that fit this profile. In Latin American countries, the highest rate of getting HIV is among monogamous married woman because their husbands bring it home from their numerous outside affairs. Does this mean that married husbands are responsible for women getting HIV? No. It means that SOME married husbands are.

How do we change the fact that some gays have many partners? Perhaps by offering them the same rights to socially accepted and legal relationships that straights have. Consider how you would view the world if you were literally not allowed to have a stable relationship that was legally protected. Consider if you were shunned,, put into a cateogry labeled deviant, told you were “not okay.” How would you feel? Might that rejection shape your behavior differently than if you were accepted as part of society? (The actual answer is “yes of course it would.)

It is time for all of us to step back from our own self-centered world views and allow people to be who they are, all of us. ALso consider that the distinction “straight vs gay” is just one way of classifying sexual orientation. Many societies see things very differently, have many and varied gender definitions. Ours is just one world view.

One of the most tragic aspects of the murder of Larry King is how many commentators have twisted the murder around to make it his own fault for being “different.” The tragedy is that American society makes his difference an offense deserving of hate.

Yes, we need to adopt policies that will reduce the spread of diseases. This has nothing to do with folks who are gay. In fact, allowing gays to be accepted, and giving those folks the same legal and social rights as straights will go a long way toward reducing the spread of disease among those who react to rejection with perfectly understandable responses.

Peace to all

Dan

Human beings have long childhoods compared to their natural lifespans. Human females have long and dangerous pregnancies and because of the newborn’s cranial size, have difficulty giving birth, and human sexual dimorphism (physical differences between the sexes) are fairly great. All of this creates a social need for nurturing families and that makes one-man/one-woman marriage the best social and cultural adaptation.

Homosexual behavior has no useful biological purpose. And where homosexual activists (who are unencumbered by the time and money demands that having and raising children bring about) promote homosexuality as a simple legitimate choice of an alternative lifestyle, they make political progress.

But that does not make them right. In high school our daughter, an honors student, had a teacher who was promoting the homosexual agenda. When our daughter used the word “straight” to designate a heterosexual the teacher admonished her saying that using that word implies that homosexuals are crooked. Our daughter asked why using “gay” to mean homosexual couldn’t be construed to imply that heterosexuals are sad. She was disciplined by being sent to the principal’s office.

I will not use slang or “politically correct” (“PC”) language. That biases the debate. I also could cite abundant medical and sociological research supporting the position that homosexual behavior is abnormal. We currently live in a US state (Massachusetts) that enforces stupid “civil rights” laws that do not permit people to even engage in the debate about homosexuality, and requires us to consider same-sex marriage legal and the equivalent of traditional marriage.

Men commit many sexual acts that are not normal, bestiality and rape being two examples. Declaring them to be normal would be no different than to declare, say, murder and theft, also normal, moral, and perfectly permissible.

Wow! I just found this on-line. Not exactly James Bond…

MI5 seeks gay spies in attempt to expand its recruiting base

By Jean Eaglesham in London

Published: August 18 2008 03:00 | Last updated: August 18 2008 03:00

MI5, the UK security service, is looking to recruit more gay staff – following many investment banks and private sector employers – in a move that reflects dramatic changes in the attitudes of the British establishment over the last decade.

Stonewall, the gay lobby group, has been hired to advise MI5, the domestic arm of the intelligence services, on how to encourage its spies to be more open about their sexuality and how to attract more gay applicants for posts.

The contract marks a significant change in stance by MI5. Gay men and women were barred from working in sensitive posts in the diplomatic or security services until the early 1990s, a quarter of a century after sexual acts between men were decriminalised in 1967. The ostensible rationale was concern that gay spies could be vulnerable to blackmail, while gay ambassadors could exacerbate tensions between the UK and countries that still criminalise homosexuality.

MI5 would have been highly unlikely to want to work closely with Stonewall in the decade to 2002, when the group was headed by Angela Mason. Ms Mason was tried and acquitted in the 1970s of planting bombs on the doorsteps of Conservative ministers.

Jonathan Evans, who became MI5 director-general last year, has now sanctioned a policy of targeting the gay community as potential recruits. Stonewall will include the security service in its guide of gay-friendly employers this year. The lobby group is also advising MI5 on how to create a supportive environment for its existing gay employees.

The decision is part of a broader cultural shift by the service, away from the traditional “tap on the shoulder by a don” method of attracting Oxbridge graduates to a more open recruitment of people from across society. The change is driven partly by necessity – MI5 has been rapidly recruiting hundreds more staff since the July 7 2005 bombings.

Ben Summerskill, Stonewall’s current chief executive, said yesterday that MI5 faced the same dilemma as other employers for whom the calibre of employees makes a difference to organ-isational performance, but who have traditionally recruited from a relatively narrow base. Stonewall has been working with investment banks for the past five years to try to help them reach employees who do not conform to City stereotypes.

Thanks for that info Dan!
All of this discussion has lead me to ask, “why do lesbians and gays
always wish to promote and spread their “culture”? “Normal” men and women do not go around
asking people to become heterosexual… So, it’s like asking, why would an HIV positive person go about spreading the disease when he knows he is positive and the effects of the disease? Or why should you invite ur friend to have whiskey everyday when you know that he may possibly became an alcoholic? None of these cause physical pain, but they destroy the “person”.
Is it that they see nothing wrong with it or do they just want to spread the habit or the disease? Have we become so immune to HIV because we know that we are able to live healthy lives for an entire lifetime once the proper drugs are taken?
The Bible states that the Word of the Lord is written on our hearts, so I believe that once we are involved in something wrong, we become aware of it. We get a deep down feeling of discomfort. To what level we deny or accept our wrong doing depends only on us, and how much we actually become immune to our bad habits also depend on how much we allow ourselves to accept them and deny to ourselves that we are actually doing something wrong.
Likewise, homosexuality becomes a mind set. But how many homosexuals are really truly happy with who they are? How many men wish that they were attracted to women and not men? How many men or women wish that they had never been introduced to homosexuality, well… and even sex for that matter?
It’s all in the heart. We all have a conscious, and whether homosexuality is wrong or right we all know the response to that deep down in our hearts despite the millions of explanations that we may present for and against the issue.

Dan (the other Dan here) states: “I also could cite abundant medical and sociological research supporting the position that homosexual behavior is abnormal.”

Since I work in health care, and teach sociology, and do research in both areas, I’d simply like to refute the allegation. “Abnormal” is a value judgment, nothing else. And one can stretch what is called science to cite anything. Research can be cited to support just about anything. Psychiatry gave up on this debate more then 30 years ago, finally removing homosexuality as a diagnosable “illness.” The question about research is to know its validity, the values (and pay source) of the researchers, and the pattern of results across studies. And, normal is also culturally specific. In Fiji, India, many cultures, you find very different ways of defining sexuality than our simple black and white gay-straight bipolar manner.

Dan, it would simply be more honest to say that you just don’t accept homosexuality and leave it at that. Of course, whether a person accepts any aspect of reality doesn’t alter the reality. What it does do is create hate, bigotry, and discrimination, and ultimately, spirals out to where people are injured and killed, whether individually as in the case of the young man in my US community, or en masse as in the case of Hitler slaughtering thousands of folks who were homosexual. There is a direct linear relation between your type of comments and what happens in real life when people turn words into hate acts. Someone mentioned “political correctness” which is just another way of saying “I have a right to make statements embedded in hate. Well, of course, people do, but they must also then take responsibility for such positions, and also accept that people of conscience will object.

Peace to all, you included Dan, and please, learn better to live and let live

Dan Jordan, PhD, ABPP

“I also wonder if animals can be gays or lesbians too- I’ve never seen any that are. Are human beings the only creatures with strange sexual behaviour- and if so, why? It would then seem as if homosexuality is not so normal, after all.”

Actually, if you grew up on a farm or ranch you would know that roughly 8% of all male mammals and birds are homosexual in nature (it is difficult to show homosexuality in female animals). It is a part of farming. If these animal were designated for breeding then you separate them out of the breeding stock and into the food stock then slaughter them when they get of age/weight with all of the rest. True equal opportunity with no prejudice. Just the financials of farming.

Joel

Hi guys,

I can see you are so well read up on facts that most of the disspelling myths has already been done, so I only want to add a couple of quick links for you. These are to the BBC and The University of Oslo who did some great coverage of gender and sex variant behaviour in the animal kingdom. These have a lot of photographic evidence of animal homosexuality and gender variant behaviour, as well as academic references and studies if you really want to verify that it is fact that even creatures that run on instinct alone and so have no choice or preference in the matter can be homosexual or transgendered.

Illustrations of Gay Animals at Olso Uni

Against Nature? Exhibition at Olso University

BBC coverage of Gay Penguins in Berlin Zoo

There are also many references to animals behaving in “sex swap” behaviours, from the obvious like fish and alligators which physically change to those like hens who act like roosters.

There’s tons more of this info out there so I won’t go on, suffice to say that the notion that these behaviours are made by choice is nonsense. I am transexual and I understand it to be natural, just not the norm – and a good thing too! I hope that the rest of the world are born normal, it’s not something people do for fun although obviously we like to enjoy our lives just like everyone else does.

Personally I think “morally loose” is allowing the real issues of the world to go on without notice – the repression of the 3rd world, the destruction of the environment for profit, the proliferation of nuclear and chemical weapons and the wars that create terrorists. Two men getting it on together or a guy who thinks he is a girl really doesn’t make much difference in the grand scale of things since if the violent, profiteering straight men carry on the way they are we’re all doomed! Let’s get back to dealing with the real sickos of the world – the George Bushes who invade little, defenceless countries, the WHO who allows bad medicines to flood Africa, the Chinese arms dealers selling uranium to terrorists and the oil companies creating global warming. Perhaps if we stop looking at the small fish of the world and look at the big picture, we’ll get a better idea of why the world is headed where it is.

Danielle,

I would be interested in your thoughts on the subject matter at this point given the information that exists in the responses as well as through some simple research. I don’t of course expect you to change your opinion but I would imagine that your question,

“I also wonder if animals can be gays or lesbians too- I’ve never seen any that are. Are human beings the only creatures with strange sexual behaviour- and if so, why? It would then seem as if homosexuality is not so normal, after all.”

has been answered and will no longer be used as one of your arguments for the “bizarre” nature of homosexuality.

SKT

OK, is bestiality with a cow, a sow, or a nanny-goat (none of which are likely to hurt or harm the animal) “normal” then?

The bible is a collection of myths, nothing more or less.

Homosexuals are sick people who deserve our sympathy, but homosexual acts are not tolerable in a society concerned with public health and family welfare.

Hi Suki,

I completely understand your point of view. The truth is that homosexuality exists and it is an issue that has to be confronted. I must admit that you are quite open minded, and I appreciate that.

When I made my comments, there are a few things that were not explained. I have quite a few very close friends who are homosexuals. It is just very interesting ‘how’ they became homosexuals. It’s not that they were born like that, but were what we would say “molested” as young boys. From my friends’ experiences, sometimes, at a young age, they are confused, not sure whether what they are being made to do is wrong or right, and were made to swear to secrecy. Homosexuality was not being seen as such, but as something that you do with another man. It becomes normal to them, but they do become aware of the fact that it is not fully accepted in the society, so they secretly develop relationships with other boys. They did develop as human beings, became sucessful men, but sometimes feel trapped in something that they did not call on themselves or willingly accept and are at times feel unhappy about it because they too feel that they wish they were ‘normal’. They were introduced to it. So I would really appreciate it if you could share some light on this.

Where adults are involved, it’s their choice how they decide to live their lives. But, where children and teenagers are concerned, how do we confront the issue? Many of them are the people who develop into the ‘gay’ men that we speak of today.

thanks

Don’t know why I have stayed in this, but, what the heck. The other Dan writes another completely unsubstantiated, but morally oppressive statement, “homosexual acts are not tolerable in a society concerned with public health and family welfare.” Nothing supports such a stance.

If we want to live in a world where people stop killing each other, then we must all of us back off, get out of each other’s business, and get down off of our self-righteous nonsense that passes for thought and humanity.

By the way, Suki, your quote does not come from the US Constitution. It comes from the Declaration of Independence. While both are deeply flawed documents, the point is worth noting. The Declaration uses the word “equal.” It is dropped, on purpose, with tragic consequences, from the Constitution. Lincoln came, during the US Civil War, to realize this. His conversion to human rights was revealed in his Gettysburg Address. How? He opened with “Fours score and seven years ago . . . .” That year count refers to 1776, the year of the Declaration, not the Constitution. He saw the distinction (quite a bit has been written about this, I’ve researched it pretty extensively). He saw that we must balance equality with freedom, and that the official document of the US does not do that. Freedom without equality is a sham of rights.

And so, we need to identify a higher ideal, one for all of humanity. The best work toward that ideal can be found in the effort to establish a new standard, that of human rights. And guess what, human rights allows for marriage of any pair of adults, however they choose. It is the human right of gays, male and female, to marry. And those who disagree are therefore anti-human rights, and pro-their-own-petty-biases. Not because I say so, but because that is where this reality leads.

The human rights domain has many areas needing work, the whole concept is young in human thought and thus roughly formed so far. But we must do the work, work toward new universal standards for all people. I work for that in my own life, am dean of a graduate studies program that includes a human rights domain (in St Kitts & Nevis). I hope to use that to further this work.

As for the others, either you need to rethink your realities, or accept that you are promoting hate. By the way, the message where the author talks about how gay animals are culled out for slaughter is a thinly veiled metaphor of hate.

Daniel Jordan, PhD, ABPP
International University for Graduate Studies

There is no need for same-sex marriage. It can have no purpose. Marriage is a cultural device to provide a nurturing environment for children, a biological impossibility in same-sex marriage. Same-sex partners (or even friends) can make living wills and last wills, so hospital visits and inheritances are red-herrings.

But speak the truth and be accused of hate. The debate has become political. It should be purely scientific. Religion is not science.

The purpose of sex ix procreation. That it feels good leads to bonding, which also has a purpose — keeping a family together to nurture the offspring.

Homosexuals seek only gratification. For them, procreation is neither possible nor desired. That is unnatural.

It is culturally stupid and perhaps culturally disastrous to equate any same-sex arrangement or even opposite-sex promiscuity with opposite-sex marriage and family life. The family is the basis of society.

The other Dan states that “same-sex marriage….can have no purpose” that it is “a cultural device to provide a nurturing environment for children and [that] legal issues are red-herrings.”

By predefining (and mis-defining) the purpose of an aspect of contract law, the author predefines his own outcome. In fact, more than 1,200 federal laws, much less state and local laws, apply to marital partners. Spinning off the purpose of marriage is children, then all married people must have children. That would mean we should also not allow marriage of women beyond child-bearing age or men who are sterile.

The author states “But speak the truth and be accused of hate.” The problem is that the author speaks only self-reinforcing culturally-bound rhetoric, has not spoken truth. Any speech or policy that denies equal rights is hate speech. It is speech designed to oppress.

The author states “The purpose of sex ix procreation.” If true, then why does 99.9+% of all sex acts not lead to procreation? The purpose of an act can be found in itself. This argument also opens a window on the issue of whether women should be allowed to use birth control, which the current American administration is attempting to deny.

“Homosexuals [are] unnatural.”

Again, by staking the claim to definition of natural or normal, the author predefines his own result, but of course that is a tautology.

The author states “The family is the basis of society.”

I heartily agree with that latter, which is why homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals. And, again, one must not limit the definition of family to any one narrow definition of what that means. Families come in all sorts of permutations across time and cultures. We must be open to them all.

I truly feel sorry for people who cannot open their minds and hearts to ways of being that are outside their own narrow preconceptions. It is sad for them, and sad for the world. Their shallow end of the pool of discrimination is directly linked to the deep end, and it is an easy slide down into the depths. These slides are historical realities.

Peace to all, even those who want to control the lives of others

Dan Jordan, PhD, ABPP

Funny, I originally hit this site because I thought I might make some connections with folks in Dominica, my and my wife’s new home. Wind up instead in a debate over something that should have been long ago settled. I’d much prefer connecting with folks around issues of life in Dominica. We cannot yet live there for extended periods, but that is in our future, especially if things keep sliding toward Fascism in this country.

Peace

Dan

If not-reproducing individuals served no biological process then how do you explain ANTS? After all only the Queen reproduces! Termites too! And many kinds of wasps! They do quite well so there must be a biological function then to have ant nests filled with ants who don’t reproduce!

And there are lots of gay animals. My neighbours dogs are gay for example.

Please look into the science a little bit. You’ll find some answers to some of your questions there and more is discovered every year about lifes mysteries through science.

As for HIV, education is the key to that. Thats what has worked in the countries with the least HIV. They still have gay people. Oh and straight people sleep around lots too, about 30% at least of married MEN AND WOMEN cheat on their partners!

And also consider the ethics. A person should be free to do whatever they want so long as they respect anothers freedoms and choice.

So a murderer can murder rightously only if the victim chooses without coercion to be murdered. Sure it sounds odd but think about it. It means that the murderer doesn’t get to murder anyone because no-one wants to be murdered! If they go ahead and kill someone anyway the fact it was done against the other persons wishes is what makes it wrong! Rape is just the same!

But the gay person does get to be gay so long as they find a partner who can give uncoerced informed consent. Now only adults and only humans can give that consent! See, no bestiality no pedophilia but lots of other ‘bizarre’ stuff is ok because it involves only consenting adult people.

So there you go. A simple piece of philosophy that deals with all your issues. Transgender people can and should be able to be free to make their own choices. If you think they shouldn’t imagine if YOU were not free to be straight? Imagine if YOU were not free to choose what you would want to choose!

You can fairly claim no right or freedom that you do not freely allow and support for all others!

It’s all a matter of consent. We not only should support whatever bizarre things others want to do but in fact we must. It’s the only thing that validates and justifies our own freedoms!

Otherwise it’s might that makes right, who has most power, whose religion has the most power etc etc.

Might I suggest you look into the philosophies of the Enlightenment, on the origins of Human Rights, Civil Rights, the French Revolution and the basics of modern democracy. You’ll find these philosophies of how to define right and wrong in countries with multiple religions, races and cultures work quite well.

But there are some who want others not to be as free as them, who want others not to be equal but lesser. Those people are evil because what they want, the restrictions of other peoples freedoms, is evil.

In the past and still sometimes today it was complaining about black people being tolerated as equals, then complaining about women being tolerated. Now it’s gay and transgender people.

Those people should be as free as any other person. You only deserve your freedom if you support the freedom of everyone.

So then do you deserve your freedom? Or are you become like the whites who oppose/d black equality, the men who oppose/d womens equality? Are you becoming the same as them?

I have not resorted to ad hominem (meaning “Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents’ motives.”) attacks in this thread.

I have also used facts, not beliefs.

But I am now being called a racist. For that person’s info, I risked my life and my career during the Civil Rights movement.

I can see that people are irrational on this topic. I will not contribute further to this thread.

People let us stop the nonsense. The issue is about human rights. Jesus said Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So simple put, dont label people, accept them, and allow them the same rights you take for granted for yourself. If we stop the labels, we would stop the hate. Now I think everybody should marry, and everybody should be counselled that once they get married they cannot separate. Again that was Jesus teaching. Find a partner u love settle. We are limiting Gods creativity if we think he only created heterosexual, God was very curious and inventive, in his experements he created all sorts, black ,yellow ,pink, blue-black, grey-white, browns, just look at nature, and say that God did not create differences in people, physically so why not sexually?. Now trans-is another subject, but u know something, that is their prerogative so I respect them. Jesus also said mind your own business. Judge Not He loves ALL his creations. Not some all. I have this to say to my black brethren, remember is the same misinterpretation of scripture that was used to enslave us, segregrate, and to support the system of aparthied. The same scripture that was used to refuse us the basic human rights of marriage,the same scritpure that was used to dehumanise us. Let us not buy into the religious bigotry used by some to control many. Let us read the bible with intelligent understanding, and note that the only them of Jesus was love towards your fellow man. The rest are just stories of mankind creulty towards each other without Jesus love in thier hearts. so all u haters, please stop quoting scriptures and start living by loving and accepting.

The world has gone nuts since the 1960s. Sex is like a fire, it has to be kept in the fireplace. Once out, it burns everything else, including childhood, marriage, family, innocence, communities, decency, language, reverence, religion, holiness, love for others, character, discipline, you name it. Every culture in history where sex has been allowed widespread outside heterosexual marriage has collapsed in less than 3-4 generations. The west is in decline and the rest of the world apes the west and copies whatever it does, good or bad. don’t be fooled.
Homosexual agenda, all kinds of things going on, nobody cares.

You are right.

Natural law tells us what is right, and to put it delicately, no part of the colon is designed for intercourse. Two people of the same sex with normally functioning bodies can never reproduce, thus homosexuality is unsound from an evolutionary standpoint. If people of the opposite sex cannot reproduce, they can still provide for the unique developmental needs of a child. A mother and a father each have something unique to offer in this developmental process. Social research tells us how important this is.

There are not homosexual relationships in the animal world. Seemingly homosexual actions are generally expressions of dominance.

It is interesting how people try to justify the behavior of humans, who are generally rational creatures, by equating them with animals who are incapable of rational thought. Not too flattering, and actually quite degrading.

It is a shame that much of the mental health community justifies this abnormal behavior. LGBT is abnormal behavior.

In the Western world, HIV is a behavior mediated disease primarily afflicting men who have sex with men, IV drug abusers, and people who have sex with them. Promiscuity is prominant among these groups as well.

Sexual deviancy is a tragedy for those afflicted by it and for those who are subjected to its propaganda, especially children.

What you think is insane behavior is not the definition of insanity.

Marriage has been between people of the opposite sex for over 5000 years of human history. There is a reason for that – the nurture and protection of children. Why do homosexuals and their supporters want to redefine marriage? They have civil unions in most places. They really are trying to reorder society and force the acceptance of their behavior, which most people find abnormal.

Why would anyone compare rational humans to irrational animals? That is degrading. HOmosexual behavior in animals is not about sexual preference, it is generally a projection of dominance.

Boetica

Wow, this argument is still alive. I believe you are well intended, a good person, but you come across as hateful and narrow minded. Your “5,000″ years is just silly, no actual history to support that. 5,000, even 2,000 years ago, men married many women, had concubines, and even were gay, not one thing has changed. Gays will bring about the decline and fall of the current Empire? Julian, wow, they’d be intrigued to learn they have that much power. Rather more to the point, the power elite, the big financiers, the CEO’s of the world corporations, the militarists who are sucking the life out of the planet seem much more powerful than some other people who just want to live their lives. Your bit about 3 or 4 generations is just plain made up, no basis in reality. I’ve been saddened to see both so much hatefulness here, and frankly so little regard for reality, research, actual facts about life, history, our biology. People just seem inclined to have that idea that whatever they believe should be policy, that their personal biases should drive public policy, and don’t let reality get in the way. Of course, believe anything you want, but our individual opinions should not drive policy. Policy should be based on universal standards of human rights and social justice. Base it on anything else, a version of religion, a local nationalist set of values, be they American, Russian, French, Chinese, whatever, and all you have is one culture trying to impose itself on the rest of the world. Break out of such limited and tragic points of view, just one more excuse for some people to hate some other people. Boetica, I wish you could read your words through the lenses of someone else. Comparing gays to “irrational animals” — do you have any idea how hate filled that sounds (as well as just, I really hate to say it, stupid). It shows you actually know nothing of the biology, neurology, history, cultural factors, all the actual reality that goes into how human sexuality, or relationships, or hearts and minds, are formed. The use of the phrase “sexual p[reference” is a giveaway. People do not have sexual preferneces, like preferring chocolate ice cream to vanilla. We have sexual orientations that are born into us, are part of us. To use your idea of preference would mean that even you just wake up day-to-day and decide, hey today I’ll be straight. Nah, doesn’t really work that way, does it? People marry for all sorts of reasons, only some of which have to do with children. I do think that the word “marriage” is a problem. It gets used both by religion and societies. Don’t want people to marry in your religion, okay, whatever. As a matter of public policy, two caring and loving people should be allowed to marry and it is no one else’s business. Trying to force acceptance of their own orientation, well, yes in a way you’re right, but I don’t see why it is any of your business. More accurately, “they” and social justice advocates like myself, are trying to “force” you to see that one’s sexual orientation, how they live their personal lives, who they marry and thus have legal rights of care and obligation and stability is simply none of your concern. I’m truly saddened by this thread. Your hatefulness is just so obvious and tragic in so many ways.

Peace

My comment was rational and historically based. I understand that when you cannot refute a rational argument people who believe as you do resort to name calling, i.e. “hateful”. That is a propaganda tool. The comment about animals and rationality was in regards to the people who point out instances of animals engaging in homosexuality and applying human aims to this behavior. It is simply nonsense. Homosexual relationships in ancient times were tolerated, but nowhere were they ever accepted as equal to marital relationships. Ever. I know history. I know biology. I know physiology. I know anatomy. I know neurology. I know about all of the things you claim I am ignorant of, yet we come to totally different conclusions about human behavior. How can that be?

When certain sexual practices are obviously inconsistent with human evolution, anatomy and physiology they are fetishes or paraphilias. Do you support pedophilia as well? Why cannot a ten year old boy who knows he is gay engage in sex with an adult male if he wants to? The Greeks were known pederasts, so do you support that behavior?

People do not choose their attractions, but they do choose their behavior. There is no scientific proof that people are born homosexual, no matter how many times you say it, and no matter how much you want it to be true. It is abnormal behavior.

Spare me your sanctimonious outrage.

Hmm, not certain how to respond. Declaring that some group of people, because of their status should be denied the rights that oneself has is, yes, hateful. That is not accusation, simple observation. Whether it would be to deny women the right to vote, or Blacks the right to sit at the front of the bus, it is simply, by definition, hateful. Hate need not include emotional passion, it can be a simple “cool” objective policy stance.

Also, go back and read my words. I specifically said that “I believe you are well intended, a good person, but you come across as hateful and narrow minded.” Did I say that you ARE hateful? No I did not. Thus, your response to that is way off base, your own version of misplaced “sanctimonious outrage.” Your comments come across as hateful. I did not say that you are hateful, I quite specifically said just the opposite.

As for using history as a defense, well, goodness, people through the ages have done all sorts of things that have come to be understood as not exactly a nice way to be. Using “well that’s how everyone did it” as a defense is quite weak. “Everyone” denied women equal rights, “Everyone” owned slaves, “Everyone” thought it okay to slaughter those over the next ridge, across the next river. Not exactly a high recommendation. Eighty years ago, misogynists could claim that of course women should not have the right to vote because it had never been done before. Two hundred years ago, slave owners could use your exact argument to say that nearly all societies owned slaves, so ending that would be wrong. Blacks were never accepted as equal in white dominated societies, so, hey having them as slaves would be justified by your logic. Women should be owned as chattel, because they always had been. they should be beaten when they did not conform, because the laws had always allowed it. In fact, none of the social progress ever made could or should have happened because “they” did it differently in the past, and therefore change should not be allowed. That is your argument.

Actually, you seem not to know all the things I know. I know, form your comments, that you know less about biology and evolution than I do. Again, not accusation, just observation. “Certain sexual practices” in fact are not at all inconsistent with evolution. They fit quite well within an evolutionary and bioligic framework. Yes, that is what research and observation shows.

If there is no proof that people are born with their sexual orientations, then there is no proof that anyone is born straight. That means that you must be aware of your “choice” when one day you woke up and “decided” to be straight. Hmm, do I prefer strawberry over peach? I guess I’ll go with peach. And if it is a choice, then it is something free to be redecided at some later point. Nah, Think I’ll eat strawberry ice cream. Read the research, read the biology, psychology, it is not preference, it is orientation. Every species has a proportion of individuals that are homosexual. In addition, deeper research shows how, at a population level, homosexuality imparts an evolutionary advantage, and even varies with patterns of socio-cultural conditions.

As for sanctimonious outrage, geez, get it figured out. Sanctimony is the expression of the idea that others should observe the “sanctity” of “my one right way” of doing things, or should “be (state of being, in this case straight) like me”. I am not sanctimonious, by definition, because I do not think that everyone should be straight like me, or that people who are not straight have something wrong with them, or do “wrong” things. You do. You do hold that people not like you either or both have something wrong with them or do wrong things. Given that those things are none of your business, that your stance would deny equal rights, your stance is by definition, sanctimonious. In turn, your accusation that I am sanctimonious is projection.

Want to say others should not have the same rights as you do? Okay, I advocate freedom of speech, talk away. But with freedom of speech comes the right to oppose speech that discriminates against groups of people because of their status. I support equal rights. I oppose your speech.

Kind Regards

I accidentally stumbled upon this blog just now that has been going on for almost 3 years, well aware that this debate has been ongoing for thousands and with no near conclusion. Leaving out my line of work I have decided to take advantage of the relative anonymity here and ask some questions that come to mind. I don’t have a particular agenda and want to put personal beliefs aside to try to obtains some answers. My questions arise more along the lines relating to long term results of equal rights of homosexuals particularly those pertaining to marriage and the family model.

The parties involved in consensual sex are responsible for the potential consequences. This means different things for heterosexual and homosexual couples. With both groups being vulnerable to STIs including HIV, only the former has the potential to conceive. With conception occurring as a product of the union of both male and female gametes whether in vivo or in vitro with possible re-implantation in a surrogate mother. Conception and childbirth is simply not feasible for 2 persons of the same sex. That being stated how then can they be awarded with the privilege then to raise children?

Implicit that there are several children born and for various reasons immediately placed into adoption that do not find immediate permanent homes both here in the United States and worldwide. Also, there are no shortages of neglected or abused children who find themselves placed into the foster care system placing them at a higher risk of further physical/sexual/psychological abuse. For a homosexual couple seeking children this would be the pool of children they could be awarded verses in vitro fertilization and a volunteering surrogate mother.

My question is not whether a homosexual couple could provide a better environment than the ones some of these unfortunate children would otherwise be faced with, but rather whether the homosexual family model of 2 fathers and a child or 2 mothers and a child is equivalent to that of a mother, father, and child?

I am trying to find the BEST scenario of the family unit placing the focus on the children, the next generation, and not on the parents. Biologically speaking (not creating a law of science)women have been designed for raising children. Once again not indicating that ALL women are fit to be good parents. If there is disagreement there, look at the process of breastfeeding and the natural immunity and emotional bonding that is enhanced by this process. For a son or daughter to identify with both a strong male and female parent I would imagine would provide the best preparation and first-hand advice by drawing from each gender’s experiences, especially during the many changes taking place during the adolescent period. I found being able to draw from experiences from both parents truly priceless growing up and even today. These thoughts are far from complete, however the question of altering the family model is in my mind amongst the most pressing topics in discussing homosexual rights.

Please share your thoughts.

I’m not gay but I do know that your view that animals are not gay is factually wrong. There was a big museum display a few years ago in Oslo that showed case studies collected from around the world of gay – as opposed to dominating – behaviour.

I think a better term for it really is “gender variant” rather than gay as too many people associate homosexuality purely with men having anal sex. That’s actually only a part of the spectrum as there are homosexuals who never practice that but are still very gay.

Here’s the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6066606.stm

The people who comment on homosexuals and lebians are a bunch of hippocretes and confused and should search themselves to find out if they are perfect.God repented he made no one from his seed ferfect up to this day,the hippocretes go to church worship God who made them not perfect with alot of faults and critizise others born acording to their nature they steal and cheat on their wives vise versa,spill blood and fight wars to control others that cant defend themselves or use riligeon to put the fear of God who made no one perfect up to this generation live like a sheep for the slaughter not knowing how the End will be.
In the perfect WORLD,TheLORD make no allowance for faults through,GOD and devils and all on earth who have faults weather you are hetrosexual,lesbian or homosexual face the same judgment what is important is to accept who you are and what is required of you,and the choice availabe to you,as it is you who decide your fate if you dont prepare you body for SALVATION and this is what all on earth should be concerned with and need no preacher,pastor to tell you so to be saved from the everlasting Fire according to the NEW TESTAMENT

Ridiculous psychobabble. Same-sex attractions are abnormal; evolution, i.e. science tells us so. Gays have much higher numbers of sexual partners (males)as compared to heterosesxuals, and not because they “can’t” have a stable relationship. Are you saying they can’t control themselves? Not a very flattering portrayal of homosexuals. Many places allow civil unions, giving them many of the same rights as the heterosexual institution of marriage. Haven’t we been hearing that “marriage is just a piece of paper” for decades now?

Dan, in San Francisco some time ago AIDS cases resumed an upward trend after the development of anti-retroviral drugs which changed the disease from a death sentence to a chronic illness which was very expensive to treat. Why? Because gay males started having unprotected sex again. In North America AIDS is primarily a homosexual disease. Who gets AIDS? Men who have sex with men, and those who subsequently have sex with men who have sex with men. IV drug abusers get AIDS (exchange of bodily fluids through needle sharing).

A murder is a murder is a murder; it is simply EVIL no matter what the cause. Please stop exploiting a tragedy for propaganda purposes.

Your thought process is very difficult to follow.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17 – 19

The Holy Spirit helps us to overcome the flaws in our character as we become more like Christ. Do not teach anyone that sin is ok. We will all be judged as you have stated.

God Bless you and perfect you in His image.

Nice propaganda piece. I think you covered just about all of the talking points.

Many of the philosophies you pointed out depend upon “Nature’s God” as named in the US Declaration of Independence to determine what is right and normal. The problem is that you and your ilk are forcing upon people who see the irrationality of homosexual behavior acceptance of a behavior that is clearly not normal. You are criminalizing thought and speech to close down debate.

People are born “black”; people are not born gay. It doesn’t matter how much you want it to be true, it simply isn’t.

If I deserve my freedom then laws against “discrimination” of any kind should be abolished. Clearly that would put the worst offenders out of business, as word spread about the discrimination that certain people practice. If I oppose sex outside of marriage, then I should be able to refuse to rent to people who are not married. If I think homosexuality abnormal and unhealthy, then I should be able to refuse rental of my private property to such individuals.

You clearly do not support the freedom of everyone, therefore by your own declaration you do not deserve your freedom.

And those who go against this theory clearly must be marginalized and destroyed professionally. I think you will find that there are scientists who reject this theory.

People have been watching too many cartoons, and this is probably what is partially behind applying human emotions, needs, and motivations to animals.

Can a Tomato seed make an lemon?.let us reason this out cleary and and use the little common-
sense we have, so we dont go about destroying others based on professional theory,or micky mouse cartoons.God from the seed of god of the devils said he made no one from his seed of god passed on to him perfect Gen 6.4 up to this generation sprits from the seed of God of god in their humanity steal,cheat on their mates.murder. spill blood on earth by fighting wars and living in poverty.The bible also state clearly God is a god of god.
The god who psassed on his seed to make a god like himself admited !Tim1.7-9 Know this the Law was given to my god by the devils to be a king with the devils not understanding what they did or have understanding what they said to know the devils made gods to be sinners to become godly sprits after death of the body.It is he who hanged the body ADAM on a tree and slay all the Sons of ADAM
1Tim1:10 The devils RAPED the holy women of CHRIST after his body ADAM was hanged on the tree and God of god slay all the Sons of CHRIST and ZION?EVE to make gods.GOD was ashamed of what he did and changed the name of gods to MANKIND as is called to this generation to date
Now if some devils who raped the holy women were homosexuals they would be passing on their seed in holy Flesh created by the ETERNAL SPRIT IN THE LIGHT who CREATED CHRIST AND ZION to populate the earthy with HOLY immortal Sprits in his Flesh.god admited its the LORD who released him from hell to tell mankind the TRUTH because God dont want mankind to know the TRUTH of what he did.1TIM 1;13-15 use your little commonsense in this generation with alot of theory of scientist and know it all preachers and do gooders as the saying goes multituds are called few will be saved through ignorance of the TRUTH.of this persecutor who had no FAITH and became a blasphmer and had no mercy who call him self almighty and put fear in all mankind to worship him to death to be a godly sprit with no flesh to suffer in everlasting flames for ignorance of the Choice avalable to sert in Peace. god addmited I am the first god of the devils and suffer much for what I did,I raped the daughter of Adam to make a god as my self to be with me. (17) CHRIST IN ADAM Created ELIJAH to be The KING IN the King in the kingdom with everlasting life.

1TIM1:17 Elijah is the first SPRIT CHRIST created by the WORD in the Kingdom in SALVATION as His SON with everlasting life to do the Work in KINGDOMS for Salvation on earth.so all sprits from the seed of god in the kingdom should take heed of the life a head for everlasting peace or everlasting comsuming fire the choice is yours while you have flesh on your body and dont wait to find out the Truth after death.
1TIM 1:18-19The god addmited This Testament that I speak of my godly son has declared war against Lord Elijah with the WORD. It is my god that has brought condemnation on all sprits of gods/mankind to fall to the devils. He had no faith and blasphemed ELIJAH and CHRIST.
I exort therefore since I am the first god that passed on the seed of devils to thee.I pray for all mankind to take the CHOICE to rest in PEACE while they live in the kingdon and not end as agodly sprit without flesh in everlasting flames with the devils. so have Faith in the LORD to save you with honour amen.2 Tim 14 The devil raped Eve to make me a god in her flesh.1Tim 4-1multi
-tudes of sprits of gods will return to God of god in the time of salvation if the dont have faith.and should take heed of the NEW TESTAMENT.every sprit from the seed of God is a god and they should prepare their body for SALVATION.your sprit cannot be born again but your kingdom can be created with a IMMortal sprit to continue on earth. to be CHRISTS through Lord ELIJAH.
1Pet 3:18 The godly sprit of God in the body of Peter addmited Christ in the body of ADAM suffered be fore his body was hanged on a tree.its CHRIST BODY that was unto death for him to be a SPRIT and went to make war on the devils for rape .Christians pray Hail Jerusalem in the body of Mary pray for the sinner who passed on his seed to make us sinners to death.

Those who think this is theory of micky mouse and scientists should know sprits of scientists cant live in the kingdom for ever and will depart to face practical knowledge of everlasting science and creation .those who belive in theory of scientists without a foundation will have alot of time to discuss with scientists how to get out of everlasting flames with devils.
The devils will tell you, you did the same mistake as us,so shut up we dont want to hear you cry- ing in this heat we are all sinners,we thaught we were clever as the ETERNAL HOLY SPRIT in the LIGHT with the WORD and made gods from our seed to be our creation on earth.
Their is no freedom in this fire for our sin. you had a choice to have FAITH in the LORD to save you
we are all stupid living the good life to F… in the flesh to make gods sinners.we are the scum of the world an now all holy angels in heaven are laughinfg at us cry for our sin on earth
We did all the hard work F… and passing on our seed to make gods on earth. now our gods are doing the same and making kingdoms for Salvation for the LORD and His CHRIST for creation and the sprits that belive in theory and have no FAITH they send to us crying to be born again and cry to God to save them,the devils cry if God can save us from this fire we we will worship him for ever.
Take heed of what is writen while you are still human and the the two choices available for peace or hell. it is made simple and clearly for all so you dont have to say Im not educated to know this CHOICE to have faith to rest in peace,the preacher in the church made by human hands did not tell me about this choice while I was human in the flesh. I should prepare my body for SALVATION
it is better I was not born to face this judgment. spread the good news and save you brothers and sisters before its to late.

The bible state all born fron the passed on seed of god are sinners, and we should honest with ourselves to see we are not perfect with many faults and ask can this fault be put right as no sinner can enter heaven. many preachers are sinners born with the same fault as your self and up to this day they cant tell you the choice that is available to have peace and not hell.
They come in all disguises.some call themselves doctor this or that,pastors, priests,bishops,ect.
they tell you to worship god in one breath and the other they give praise to the LORD.They fail to
distinguish the difference as to who has power, and who can save you so you dont waste your time praying to one who is not the saviour.we live in the time of salvation for kingdoms on earth and its not the time to be ignorant as sinners to have faith in preachers who cant distinguish bet-tween God of the seed of god who said he repent for passing the seed of god to you to be facing
judgment.The bible state God is a god from the passed on seed of god.The Lord is a Lord of the
Lord CHRIST by the WORD of the ETERNAL SPRIT in the LIGHT.This is Called the TRINITY by the WORD and with the WORD to creat immortal SPRITS in the light in the kingdom in the time of SALVATION.The godly sprit of God in the body of Peter said to mankind let your kingdom be among
the Kingdoms chosen for Salvation 1Pet2.9 through LORD ELIJAH to have a immortal Sprit created by Christ according to the New Testament.This is the mystery hid by preachers revealded to you col.1.26 Is58.2The preachers today call money seed and say the more money you give them they will pray for you.if you give them your hard earned money you are brain washed an join the multi-
tudes for the fire.The LORD is only intererted in a body prepared for Salvation or join God of god for having no Faith to save you from everlasting fire.A lesbian cant make a lesbian because they have no seed,a gay cant make a gay with a gay because they dont have a womb with holy eggs. both lesbians and gays will say its the hetrosexuals who made us with this faulty seed and the hetrosexuals will blame God of god for passing on the faulty seed to them, and god will blame the devils for making him a sinner for tresspassing in holy flesh to make godly sprits for devils to live by the laws of nature to death.all sprits from the seed of God of god are brothers and sisters of god,It is made very simple to understand why you are not perfect and you are not a Sprit of Creation and because its not your fault to be born,you have a free choice to decide your fate for you PEACE or the everlastng fire.If you dont believe keep sinning until you depart from the Kingdom,Keep in mind Jesus came to tell you the truth about the KINGDOM and the way to everlastin life is through the LORD and CHRIST his father the creator of sprits in his Flesh prepared for Salvation.Jesus is not returning to earth as he said his mission on earth is finished.
be weary of preachers who say they are doing the work of God of god who has failed to answer
your prayers and call money seed to pray to God for you.close your door and meditate on your END and put your Faith in the LORD to rest in Peace.Settle the matter of salvation for your peace while you you live in the Kingdom PS 10.6 as sprits of the seed of God of god have no exemtion to rest one earth and will be pulled up by the sprit of sun after judgment by the LORD Deut29 .22 Eccl 1.4 for kingdoms chosen to contiue in Perfection without faults for all generations on earth
IS.51.8 Reveal this to your family and friends to save them from everlasting fire Joel.1.3.